tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post5418408654554330168..comments2024-03-14T18:09:09.667-05:00Comments on Do Some Damage: How Important is Grammar?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-92046993050997715272010-06-25T10:10:30.021-05:002010-06-25T10:10:30.021-05:00As a writing teacher at the college level, I agree...As a writing teacher at the college level, I agree with you. In my developmental writing classes you can often (sadly) find writing that is at a elementary school level. <br /><br />Non-native speakers, they usually only ask for grammar lessons and want to know how to form "correct" sentences. On the other side, for many native speakers with very low skills, grammar is as painful and pointless as it was when they were kids, yet they also think that it is the only saving grace for their writing.<br /><br />When I point out the larger issues of meaning and reason, the panic of having to write more returns. Dealing solely with grammar eases the pain for students (people) because it is mechanical and safe: they think - fix the grammar and it's all good. <br /><br />The teacher in me says no, it's not. Yet, I get where they are coming from. Most of them don't have a store, giraffe, and heads spilling in the road (or similarly illogical nonsense)in the same essay. Most just have weak, unsupportable arguments that need more work, better examples, better thinking. <br /><br />In all though, while I can look past grammar and push meaning, I know their future bosses will focus on poor grammar (or not as I am currently employed in corporate America and witness poorly written emails daily). <br /><br />The sad fact is that even with poor grammar, most powerful people will be able to hire us lowly English MA-type freaks to take care of those silly writing projects. le sigh.DharmaMeetsDogmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580959870553237877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-4639136570544413372010-06-25T09:12:28.149-05:002010-06-25T09:12:28.149-05:00Something called linguistics was all the rage when...Something called linguistics was all the rage when I was of an age to learn grammar, which means I was never taught any. I learned grammar much the way I learned about sex, in places where my mother would faint to know I'd gone, and from people who may not have had a firm grip on it themselves. Most of my grammar skills come from having read a lot, so when i write something myself often say, "This doesn't look/sound right," and will rewrite until it does, even though I can't identify the specific error.<br /><br />That being said, I think it's easy to forget good grammar is not the end; it's the means. Rules of grammar evolved over time as ways to make meaning more clear across a broader spectrum of people. If it's obvious what is meant, the grammar should be somewhat flexible to suit the situation. My favorite example is Churchill's(?) great line, "That is something up with which i shall not put." To say a sentence should never end with a preposition is one thing; it's practice it's something else.<br /><br />I'm not defending bad grammar. I'm just saying there are levels of it, and the grammar must serve its role. Lower than a certain standard, it will obfuscate rather than clarify. That's where the real work needs to be done.Dana Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01350344882342624735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-81761974533235402242010-06-24T21:47:49.269-05:002010-06-24T21:47:49.269-05:00Responding to my comment, John McFet wrote:
[M]an...Responding to my comment, John McFet wrote:<br /><br /><i>[M]any writers are not trying to communicate their own ideas, they're trying to communicate the ideas of the characters they've created.<br /><br />And to do that, meaning and grammar combine to create voice. And yes, sometimes the meaning is muddled and the grammar is incorrect.</i><br /><br />I agree that writers need to get into the voices of their characters, including differences in their grammar. I contend that characters' ideas, muddled or focused, begin as the writer's ideas <i>for</i> the characters. As Graham said, the writer needs to apply characters' grammar--good, bad, or ugly--consistently, to show their ideas make sense to them. At its core, grammar is consistency. As others have commented, meaning cannot be transmitted or received without consistency.Gerald Sohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571407711439433431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-72437945976188336442010-06-24T15:06:19.897-05:002010-06-24T15:06:19.897-05:00I think AnswerGirl pretty much hit the nail on the...I think AnswerGirl pretty much hit the nail on the head, but I'll add one thought: writing is how we transmit meaning to the reader. It's the *only* was we transmit it.<br /><br />Grammar is a tool that we use for effect. When done intentionally, bad grammer, average grammar, or overly precise grammar can be used to color the reader's perception of the bare meaning of the words.<br /><br />So, in my opinion, you have to be able to do any of those. If you need to write good grammar you've got to be able to pull it off.Graham Powellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01775285782385634486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-73134599558889514792010-06-24T15:00:24.428-05:002010-06-24T15:00:24.428-05:00As Gerald says, "... grammar helps to teach m...As Gerald says, "... grammar helps to teach meaning in the first place. If a person doesn't get that, he will have a more difficult time communicating his ideas--his meaning--later."<br /><br />Except many writers are not trying to communicate their own ideas, they're trying to communicate the ideas of the characters they've created.<br /><br />And to do that, meaning and grammar combine to create voice. And yes, sometimes the meaning is muddled and the grammar is incorrect.<br /><br />Dave's example of, "I could care less," is a common mistake that should sometimes be written that way.<br /><br />What takes me out of a story fast is when the narrator's voice is too different from the voices of the characters. <br /><br />But that's just taste. I prefer an invisible narrator and characters telling their own stories. That kind of writing isn't for everyone.<br /><br />Now, I wonder how we'd feel if this question was reversed and Dave had asked, "How important is meaning?"John McFetridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09442198820998606682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-71603543403099069222010-06-24T13:28:57.117-05:002010-06-24T13:28:57.117-05:00I find too much casual bad grammer jarrs when I re...I find too much casual bad grammer jarrs when I read a book. I have to go back and re-read sentences and paragraphs to get the sense of what the writer/character is saying.<br /><br />Spelling or malapropisms also tend to annoy me!<br /><br />.....but we all have the odd typo, something I am often guilty of, when writing in haste! ;-)SueHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11394307650434614637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-5337398346569522172010-06-24T10:09:21.401-05:002010-06-24T10:09:21.401-05:00It's one thing to break rules of grammar in a ...It's one thing to break rules of grammar in a work -- fiction or non-fiction -- for a specific effect.<br /><br />It's another thing entirely to break rules of grammar because you don't care or, worse, because you don't know what they are.<br /><br />The entire point of grammar is to enhance meaning and communication. If anything you write can be intended to mean anything you want, then it means nothing, and all one is doing is inviting misunderstanding, and thus miscommunication.<br /><br />L.Lamarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14109525668934092971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-51613948450477905142010-06-24T09:32:38.630-05:002010-06-24T09:32:38.630-05:00I could not disagree more.
Nothing pulls me out o...I could not disagree more.<br /><br /><i>Nothing</i> pulls me out of a story faster than noticing a spelling or usage error. I'm sorry, but it's like trying to look at a picture through cracked glass. The cracks in the glass distract me from the image in the picture. <br /><br />It does matter, because mistakes obscure meaning. Yes, sometimes I can figure out that you mean "you're" when you've written "your," but why should I have to? Why make your reader try to read your mind? The point of the written word is to share what's in your mind so that other people don't have to try to be psychic. <br /><br />It's also a matter of understanding words as building materials. It matters <i>a lot</i> if you build a house with crooked angles and bent nails and cracked pieces of wood. If you can't use an apostrophe to show me that you understand that a letter is missing from a word, or that something belongs to someone, I don't trust your ability to use words on any greater scale. <br /><br />If we were working in an oral tradition, it wouldn't matter — but we're not. We write things down so that people who don't know us, in other places and other times, will understand what we mean. Unless we all follow the agreed-upon rules for that method of communication, it doesn't work the way it should.Ellen Clair Lambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14944288413332520719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-68483281501911881312010-06-24T09:30:28.307-05:002010-06-24T09:30:28.307-05:00I think I'm going to reiterate my response to ...I think I'm going to reiterate my response to your post from years ago. To me, grammar is vitally important to clear thought. It's easy to jump on the bandwagon that the meaning behind a sentence is more important than how the sentence is structured, but grammar helps to teach meaning in the first place. If a person doesn't get that, he will have a more difficult time communicating his ideas--his meaning--later.<br /><br />It's also easy to say that grammar isn't as important in fiction, but I think the grammar for fiction is simply different depending on the world you're writing about; it's no less important for your writing to be well structured.<br /><br />I think everyone should know the parts of speech by seventh grade, but as a teacher I didn't see that. So I don't think we can have an age by which grammar is no longer taught, but then learning grammar is learning to communicate, something we continue all our lives.Gerald Sohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571407711439433431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-33117280247349353212010-06-24T08:49:51.490-05:002010-06-24T08:49:51.490-05:00Totally. Too many rules in general.
I grew to hat...Totally. Too many rules in general.<br /><br />I grew to hate spelling and grammer as a kid, because i couldn't do it. In a time before schools looked to see if there were any learning difficulties at play, i just got told the same things over and over and got angry.<br /><br />And even as an adult, someone can make the best and most intelligent argument in the room, but others can pound on it if the grammar is wrong.<br /><br />I find that people will often excuse me for getting things wrong because they know i have reason, but then turn and pound on somebody else for making the same errors. Why?<br /><br />Too may rules, too many hang ups.<br /><br />And grammer should not be a hangup when it comes to fiction. Sure, there are basics, the writer needs to have an idea of formatting, or an agent who does it for them (Cheers Decker!) But people and conversations are not grammatically correct.<br /><br />Things can be fixed and formatted later, as you said. Even then, fixing the work is an easy trap to fall into. In the hands of the wrong editor, the spirit of the writer and story can be lost.<br /><br />I think you hit it right; meaning.<br /><br />A writer with perfect grammar is nothing without meaning or character. But a writer with meaning and character can survive poor grammar.Jay Stringerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764183157841848163noreply@blogger.com