tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post311702184975418859..comments2024-03-14T18:09:09.667-05:00Comments on Do Some Damage: Is crime fiction socially aware?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-24509928132943744462013-04-04T08:33:10.624-05:002013-04-04T08:33:10.624-05:00@Thomas Pluck:
That was my point. Usually, when s...@Thomas Pluck:<br /><br />That was my point. Usually, when someone gets criticized, they cry "Free speech," then climb on the soap box about how offensive other people's free speech is.<br /><br />It never meant freedom from consequences, just freedom from legal consequences (and even that's not 100%. Slander/libel is illegal, as is yelling "Fire!" in a movie theater. That's as it should be.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-78162512728046690732013-04-04T07:42:01.493-05:002013-04-04T07:42:01.493-05:00Care to elaborate Mr. uh, "evil"?
Free ...Care to elaborate Mr. uh, "evil"? <br />Free speech doesn't mean immunity from criticism. It means you should expect it.Thomas Pluckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17008022962076648740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-85828000961101230522013-04-03T20:43:08.057-05:002013-04-03T20:43:08.057-05:00You can have free speech or you can have freedom f...You can have free speech or you can have freedom from being offended, but never both. Which means some people need to suck it up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-42912739286634153362013-04-03T09:09:52.775-05:002013-04-03T09:09:52.775-05:00It's the movies and TV.
When I first attended...It's the movies and TV.<br /><br />When I first attended a sci fi convention in the dark ages it was all about books and authors. The only person in "cosplay" was a woman hired by a movie company (it was at NewCon in Boston, '77 or '78. Sheesh, I'm old ;).<br /><br />I haven't been to a sci fi convention in a while but my understanding is that books and authors are not front and center anymore. I've heard that some big-money movie companies hire lots of people to go to these conventions now.<br /><br />Maybe it'll happen in crime fiction, too, when the movie companies get involved.<br />John McFetridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09442198820998606682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-24874274658660343502013-04-03T08:56:10.478-05:002013-04-03T08:56:10.478-05:00It boils down to this, I think: sci-fi and fantasy...It boils down to this, I think: sci-fi and fantasy are by their nature more concerned with ideal alternate universes/societies, while crime fiction tries to look at the darker side of society as it is. Arguing about utopias, and who belongs in them, will always cause more contention than the premise that bad people sometimes do bad things and need to be brought to justice.Ellen Clair Lambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14944288413332520719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-83483881255444211682013-04-03T08:24:12.973-05:002013-04-03T08:24:12.973-05:00Yes. I think the cosplay element is a huge part of...Yes. I think the cosplay element is a huge part of this.<br /><br />I tried to give that some thought and pixels, but kept sounding like some asshole saying that the problem is women dressing up like Lara Croft -- which isn't the problem at all.<br /><br />The stereotype does seem to be that for sci-fi and fantasy, women are bikini-clad and for crime fiction women are victims.<br /><br />Honestly, it seems nearly every crime fiction book I see talked about is WOMAN GOES MISSING.<br />Steve Weddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03876211586767139613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-24639637342157348852013-04-03T08:04:56.525-05:002013-04-03T08:04:56.525-05:00Well said, Jay. We have our own divisions. Mocking...Well said, Jay. We have our own divisions. Mocking craft cozies is just code, sometimes.<br />Christa Faust had to deal with being painted as a sacrificial victim on the NoirCon program last year, because you know, she's tough, she writes hardboiled as hell, she knows enough MMA fighters that I bet one of us taught her a good nut twist and eye gouge and I'd put money on her winning a fight vs. any of the men on the cover if that mag with her- but ey, she's a dame, they're the ones who get rescued, or better yet, brutally killed so they have to be avenged, am I right? <br />Fuck that shit.<br /><br />Crime writers are a friendly bunch, but we're people. I know one "socially aware" writer who gets attacked and slammed for being such, because he soils the noir with "preachiness."<br /><br />So yeah, we're not immune. But I think we are better off in some ways, because it's less of a nerd culture where boys escape to, and feel threatened when women intrude.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Thomas Pluckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17008022962076648740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-63298060178894002592013-04-03T06:46:40.163-05:002013-04-03T06:46:40.163-05:00....I should have used that as tomorrows post............I should have used that as tomorrows post.....ah well. Jay Stringerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764183157841848163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-5962183515395417512013-04-03T06:46:13.725-05:002013-04-03T06:46:13.725-05:00Part 2-
As someone who has not yet attended a cr...Part 2- <br /><br />As someone who has not yet attended a crime fiction convention, but has attended (worked at) comic and sci-fi conventions, I'm going to make another assumption here. I'm going to guess that COSPLAY isn't that big a thing at crime conventions. The community has not had to deal with the idea that young people of all sexes and genders like to dress up as their favourite characters, and that this often leads to a lot of flesh on display. The crime fiction community has therefore not had the open fights that comes from this, of having to explain to men that flesh is not consent, and that a young person showing some skin or dressing as Lara Croft or Vampirella is not an excuse to hassle, grope or flirt. <br /><br />That also leads onto ideas of identity politics. To make another assumption I don't think young people use crime fiction for self expression and self discovery in the same way they do Sci-Fi or Fantasy. Those comunites can become a club where people go to be people and do things that they maybe can't be or do at home, or at work. And with that comes the need for the kinds of discussions you're talking about.<br /><br />Sci-Fi and Fantasy has had to have those battles, and has become a very pro-active community on these issues. (sometimes too much so, but thats better than not at all.)<br /><br />But crime fiction hasn't had to have them. The community has been able to laugh and say, "yeah, we don't have all our women on covers in the nude, or being attacked by tentacles, or wearing gold bikinis while hefting swords, we rule." But then people do start to point out, "yeah, but all your women are in revealing 1940's ball gowns, or are being strangled on the covers, or are tied to chairs as someone points a knife at them, and incidentally, why is it all so WHITE?"<br /><br />At the same time, every time we have the conversation when someone claims Noir is male only, we then have people pointing out great women writers in the genre, and that is then followed by the people who point out that we shouldn't be defining these writers by the fact they are women and simply by the fact that they're great. So we do have some of these battles. Just not enough of them. <br /><br />And there are some battles from the other communities that I wouldn't WANT to have. But that's an argument for another time. <br /><br />So yes, no. We don't discuss them enough. And when we do discuss them, the conversation doesn't get out to enough people. But making room for younger readers on the page and in the community will change that. <br />Jay Stringerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764183157841848163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7119990365479009764.post-33330870704343729732013-04-03T06:45:41.742-05:002013-04-03T06:45:41.742-05:00Part 1-
Interesting question. And overall the an...Part 1-<br /><br /><br />Interesting question. And overall the answer is NO. <br /><br />The answer is NO for pretty much all of mainstream society. <br /><br />Though we maybe have to draw a distinction between two different things; the fiction and the community. <br /><br />In crime fiction there are good writers who battle with this, and who are very progressive and socially aware, but they tend not to be the ones that sell. There is also a very conservative streak in mainstream crime fiction. Crime and punishment, old fashioned values, that kind of thing. There are people who want Noir and Hardboiled fiction to be MENS FICTION, and to allow the womenfolk to have cosy crime and books with cake recipes in them. There is also a hesitancy to read a protagonist that you can't project yourself into. There are people who want to read books to see new things, and people who want to read books to see a certain thing, and in crime we have both kinds of reader. <br /><br />Things are shifting very slowly, and I think we'll see a larger shift as Young Adult Crime Fiction grows.<br /><br />That I'd argue is key. <br /><br />Young Adult fiction deals with the world in ways that is relevant to...young adults. And YA took off a long time ago in Sci-Fi/Fantasy and Dystopia. Is there a comment in there about the age of crime fiction readers? Maybe. I don't know. But it does mean that writers and publishers have been thinking in those genres about younger readers in a way that has been slower to come through in crime. And making room for younger readers in the community as well as the fiction.<br />Jay Stringerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764183157841848163noreply@blogger.com